The X Factor: The Role of Financial Literacy in Personalization of Financial Services

Alright. Hi everybody. My name is Leah Hacker. Um, and today we're talking a little bit about financial literacy and personalization of financial services. So to go ahead and get you started, who we are, um, we are Rebel.

Rebel is a research and strategy firm. We focus on finance brands, helping them understand who their target audiences are. Typically, we spend our days understanding money matters, how people move money, why they move money, where they're going, where their pain points are, we read up segmentations, um, and understanding audiences and how they're shifting over time.

Oftentimes finance brands come, come to us to answer one of kind of large business, one of three types of large business questions. Who's our target audience? Um, what do they expect of this product and service? And then how do we deliver on those expectations?

This is my friend Lucas Elliot. We call him Dr. E, around the office. Uh, he'll be presenting alongside today, um, and to get us started, money matters are anything but logical. That is kind of the foundation of all of the things that we do. That's how we operate around understand audiences around money. Like we heard today in the keynote session, money is at the root of it. It is deeply human. When individuals, whether they're looking for wealth management, they're trying to figure out saving for retirement, college education, buying a home, lending, all of the things that we do with money, day-to-day transactions, payments, paying our bills, making sure our lights are on, and our kids are fed.

Every one of those decisions are deeply rooted in human behavior, what we choose to save, what we choose to spend, where our pain points are, what our fears are, and how we start to navigate our way through our own financial journeys are deeply rooted in historical experiences, future hopes and dreams, fears, the economy, inputs that are coming out from other sources, and what we understand about money and what we want from money.

So when we start to talk about very kind of brass tacks, products and services within the financial industry, one rule remains: people are not logical. In fact, most of the conversations that we have around money, even when we believe we're being objective about money, we're actually not. And that's the conversation we're gonna have today.

We started looking at the stats around financial literacy in America, more specifically, kind of the status of where consumers are today with their money management and how the financial industry serves individuals of all segments.

We conducted nationwide research around the questions of financial literacy. More specifically, how does our financial literacy levels impact our engagement, our awareness, and the usage of financial products and services? And in return for that, how does the financial industry service a wide range of financial literacy levels within America? What does all this mean?

We had two primary audiences that we spoke with. So the first one was consumers. We set some criteria that they needed to have a minimum household income of $60K or more. They needed to be a banked population, meaning they currently have a bank and they needed to be active on financial products using financial products and services, at least one, um, digital product.

Our second audience was financial professionals --- so individuals, much like yourselves. Uh, we recruited individuals who were hyper-focused on the consumer experience. Their job day in and day out was trying to understand how do we get people to engage and how do we keep them engaged over a period of time. So that's the, the basis of the conversation or the data that we have that we'll review today.

We're gonna walk you through the four salient findings from the research and then talk about some of the recommendations. On your chairs when you walked in, there was a card. If you did not get one, let me know. The back of it has a QR code. Uh, if you download it, it will lead you to the report. Or if you scan the QR code, you can download the full report, which has a lot more data than what we're gonna show you today. Kind of a lot of the context and digs into some of the areas that we talked today. Um, so to get us started, we're gonna talk specifically about financial literacy levels, and this is where Dr. E is gonna take over.

Awesome. Um, so the first finding that I have here is we're going to kind of walk through a little bit about the actual and perceived financial literacy. So just to set the, set the stage real quick, um, actual, um, how we got that is kind of a 12-point standardized index of financial literacy. So some specific simple questions, um, about financial basics, um, banking, APRs, um, things along those lines, if you know it, yes. If you don't know it, that's kind of that pink box right there. Um, and they're spread around the below average, average and above average. And then as we get into kind of the perceived as well, we just asked individuals how they perceive their financial literacy to be, um, whether it's below average, average or above average.

So when kind of comparing the two, um, 97% of respondents believed that their financial literacy level was, um, at least average. However, when we kind of take a look at the actual, um, only 63% of respondents could actually say that. And, you know, while taking a look at the demographic demographics of those with, um, below average financial literacy and, um, actual financial literacy, um, the two demographics weren't that different. Um, so we take a look at the age, the income levels and the education. Um, they weren't so different. Um, just taking a look at 'em, um, from a different point of view. And this was, um, actually very similar to the, um, actual and perceived above average, um, financial literacy scores as well. So as we take a kind of look into the salary ranges, income levels of individuals, we can see that the actual financial literacies, no matter kind of what, what salary you were in, it was kind of split a third, a third, a third into below average, average and above average.

As we start to pull that into the perceived financial literacy, we do see those differences kind of go. Um, and you know, over in those, the 30% of folks in each bracket, um, were in below average a level of financial literacy for the, um, actual.

Just to hop in here, I think one of the, the largest points is, we started to look at this from a demographic standpoint, is that from an income level, there is 30% of the population who actually have, who carry an actual below average financial literacy level, even at the highest brackets of our income level. So the concepts of understanding kind of basic financial literacy we're seeing, we still see they come in, um, from a, when we measure their actual financial literacy level, they're still ticking in right below when we compare the perceived with the below the stats that you just saw right before that.

And what's important about that is that you can't parse it out with your typical segmentation data. So age, income, we took education level, um, among some of the other verticals, but your standard metrics isn't going to help you determine who has higher financial literacy versus who doesn't.

Yeah. And this kind of, kind of showed, um, kind of along the age spectrum as well. So regardless of age, um, the majority of them believed that they had at least an average level of financial literacy. Um, and when we kind of look at those above 58 or 56, however, um, that they were mostly at the above average. So, um, that perceived financial literacy, um, kind of does stay the same around, um, age ranges as well. And really kind of looking into how people, people's emotions are looking around managing their finances. Um, we do see that people that believe that they are bad at managing their money, um, feel bad about, uh, with their emotions about, um, their money, um, and vice versa.

So those that feel good about or believe in their power to manage the money, um, feel better about managing the money. So that perception is really powerful here. This particular data point that we were looking at here is measuring the emotions that they're reflecting, that they are perceiving or that they're feeling on the day-to-day money management. So when we talk about money, stress, this is what we're talking about. Are you overwhelmed? Are you stressed? Are you upset? Are you anxious? Are there things that you are uncertain about?

You're not sure you can move forward. And it's kind of common sense. But if they believe that they're, if they believe they have the control, they understand how to manage the money, they believe that they are good at it, they feel good about it. When they believe that they're not, we start to see all of these negative emotions start to start to surface.

Yeah. And that kind of follows from emotions to confidence as well. Um, those that were kind of somewhat were very confident in managing their money, um, in the actual financial literacy kind of stayed the same. However, there was a huge drop off, um, in the perceived financial literacy.

Those that had below average financial literacy, um, whether they perceived it, um, really kind of had a l lesser competent confidence, um, in managing their own finances.

And that kind of leads us into our finding No. 2 --- perceived financial literacy has driven engagement with financial products, financial services, um, and just overall, um, money in general. So if you look at the, the graph on the right, um, we see that those with higher perceived financial literacy scores, um, are using more, um, financial products. Um, and then we also talk to financial professionals around this as well. And 99% of them did believe that that financial literacy does impact and influence engagement with their product or their service.

And to the left, we have the average amount of products that each individual uses from the perceived, um, above average, average, and below average. So those with above average, uh, perceived financial literacy have roughly on average five different products or services that they use compared to two that have a below average, um, perceived financial literacy. And it also, they're also more engaged throughout the year, um, in the last 12 months. Um, they're more, they're more likely to use and invest in these different types of services more if they have an above average perceived financial literacy.

So really that perception of their own financial literacy drives engagement, um, within products and services all around the board. Okay. So what's going on? I can hear your thoughts right now.

We're telling you that people who believe that they're good at things actually think that they're good at things, they feel good when they're doing that. That's not a new finding necessarily. But what we do see as we started to push through this data, was that there was some, there were some things that were kind of surfacing to the top, um, in terms of self-efficacy. So there's a theory in psychology, Bandura's theory of self-efficacy, which kind of lays out this, this belief that individuals who believe that their actions, that the things that they do, um, the tasks that they engage in can actually change the impact of, or the outcome of what's ahead of the task at hand.

So they are confident in their ability to deliver on the request, to do the job, to do the task, um, and that their day-to-day, their day-to-day tasks will move the needle on those goals. So outside of finance, where do we see this philosophy feature itself?

Do I have any runners in the room? Big? I need hands up guys. I can't see. Me, I'm short. Okay. How many people started running because you love running and you can't live a day without running? How many people, when you started running it sucked really bad? Okay. How many people who, when it started sucking, you continued to run until you loved it?

You believed that your efficacy, you believed that sticking to it, that engaging in the tasks, that doing the day-to-day activities of running would make you good at it.

We see the same philosophy emerging here, that when people believe that they are good at money, when they believe that they have the ability to engage, to do the thing that's being requested of them, to act on the request, they do the thing they engage, they're more likely to step in.

There is a, there is something that we go into in the report that in more depth. But there is something that we found over and over in our research in money. When it comes to money. When people encounter something that they do not understand, and they do not believe that they have the ability to act on the request or to achieve the goal, they disengage. And when they disengage, they stop engaging altogether, and you have less likelihood of getting them reengaged. They stall out completely. We don't see it in other consumer populations.

We see it in money. There's a big step back that says, I can't do that. And they stop. Individuals with higher self-efficacy are more likely to ask the questions necessary to be able to get them from point A to point B.

Yeah. And not only does this perception of their ability to, um, manage their money and manage their finances or just do the thing, um, it also drives and influences the perception of the entire, um, industry as a whole. So, as Leah had said, um, once people hit that stopping point and kind of disengage, their perception of the industry, it's not for them. It's not, wasn't ever meant for them, wasn't built for them. They can never go back to it. Um, that perception of the industry is kind of lost, um, and kind of gone. So the graph here just shows that those increased, um, perceived levels of, um, financial literacy have better, um, perceptions of the, um, finance industry as a whole, and it also drives to better financial outcomes as well.

So those with perceived, um, financial literacy that were above average, um, did state that they were more on track to reach their financial goals. Um, whether it was retirement, short term, long term, um, and so on. And as the actual financial, um, it's, it was about the same for no matter the financial literacy score.

And then when kind of comparing the money behavior for, um, perceived above the average perceived financial literacy and above average, um, actual financial literacy, um, they start to act the same. So those that are believe that they can do well with their money, um, start, start acting similar, no matter what their actual financial literacy is compared to those that have actual high, high, actual, there's a lot of words here. High actual above average financial literacy. It's a tongue twister.

Okay? So finding No. 4 leans into personalization. So typically in personalization, one of the things that we start to see is that personalization is used as a means to an end. It is one of the ways that we solve for awareness. Often times the questions start around personalizing experiences around if we can make them more aware of our services, of our products, of our touch points, if we can match them with age, demographics, income of the things that are available to them, then they will use it. It's the whole, no, it's here. Of course they'll use it.

Why not? That's not exactly true. Um, there's three kind of common points of personalization. So the channel personalization, we're talking about how we communicate with our clients, um, within the industry, personalized blog content or thought leadership, uh, education, content strategies, and then segmented offers and products. So how are we serving up the products in order to, to fuel engines for cross-selling goals within our organizations?

The challenge with that is that when we started to talk with consumers about what it is they were looking for from their, from their financial institutions and services and products, as well as what they see coming, what they expect more of in the future, As individuals, we're emphasizing better tech and in-person integration. The demand for in-person and digital integration is not going away.

We've got a whole conference around conversations that we're having about how to bring these two things closer together. How do we create opportunity in all of our businesses, and at the same time create an ecosystem that makes sense?

Some of the challenges that we have around designing personalized experiences with behavior in mind is deeply rooted in financial literacy. So understanding that individuals, when they choose to engage with our products, it's not the awareness that is driving their engagement. More often than not, there is a level of financial literacy, perceived or actual, that is driving their efficacy or their ability to sit down and have a conversation to be engaged with the product over time.

We know that individuals who have high personal or perceived high financial literacy, um, we know that they're more engaged. We know that they, they cross sell more frequently, so they use more cross-product pollination. We also know, we also know that they're active within those, within those products and services. They're more engaged in their financial journey over a long period of time than individuals who have low perceived financial literacy, even if they have actually high.

So how do we design? First and foremost, the data in is the data out, and that's about as good as it gets. So as we start to think about segmentation, leveraging when we, and in terms of personalization, in terms of how we're crafting experiences across touchpoints, um, the data in leveraging more behavior data. So stepping away from the zip code, the household income, the age, the demographic data that is so common in financial industries, that is how we recognize our user. They make over $200,000 to $250,000. They have this investment count and this investment account. They must be really good targets for this. That's not necessarily true.

And when we start to understand that that person on the other end may not have high levels of financial literacy or even more than that, they're not willing to engage in the conversation because they don't believe that they can take the next step.

It's a non-starter before the conversation starts. So there is a, there's an opportunity to start to leverage more behavior-driven data, more contextual data about who our users are, what it is that they need from the services that they, that they are using.

After that, there are points in time. The next, the next few points or recommendations are actually recommendations from, Bandura's theory of self-efficacy to create an experience that drives positive self-efficacy. These are the things that you do to celebrate success. So the, we are really great. So retirement is a space that we, we spend a lot of our time in. Um, and retirement is a long goal.

We ask our 23 year olds, 24 year olds who are entering the workforce. We give them a 401(k), and we say, save for something that is a very long time away. Save for it all the time, save for it, prioritize your retirement savings, check that money away. But that 24 year old is also like, I need to pay rent and I want to buy a house, and one day I wanna do this and I want to do this. And those are far more immediate goals. So this idea that we have to, we have to save the success metric until we hit the goal, is actually harmful to the experience.

Whether it's a digital experience or it's an in-person experience, we're encouraging them to disengage. Celebrating success means you're celebrating the baby steps within the experience themselves. Um, this is far easier to do from a digital experience than an in-person, but it can certainly be done with service design. But clear milestones, lay out the pathway, but celebrate the incremental movement forward versus waiting till the end that the goal is reached.

Provide comparisons for context. So first of all, normalize talking about money. Make it comfortable to ask the questions. But humans, as humans, from the time that we were very small to every single stage of our life, we learned by watching others, money is the one place within our, within our society that we keep behind closed doors. We don't like to talk about it. It's not up for discussion. And it gets really weird whenever we're in a, um, whenever we're in mixed company and we have to have a conversation about money, lots of feelings about money, remember, it's deeply human. The problem is, is that humans need to understand where they are in order to chart their course forward. So creating comparison, helping the saver understand where they are in comparison to other individuals who look like them, can help them decide if they need to amp up, if they need to pull back, if they need to change the way that they're doing, and help them understand what normal should look like. Those are, that is a, that comparison for context can be a really powerful conversation within our money. Decisions provide clear and immediate feedback. So money is a journey.

We don't ever make the right decision immediately out of the gate and get it right a hundred percent of the time. However, we also need nudges. We need cues that help us move from point A to point B.

So when we're talking about creating personalized experiences, if we're gonna talk about personalizing channels, if we're gonna talk about personalizing thought leadership or even, um, products and services, embedding or integrating, leveraging those nudges that help move our users along the journey is something that helps us get them from point A to point B.

One of the most important things that I do have to say about this, that working in financial services, there's this belief and it's, it, it is, it's an, I think we are starting to turn away from it, which is really powerful and it, and fun and interesting. But if we make it really complex, they'll reach out and ask questions. If we give them all the information at once, they'll reach out and ask questions. They'll need us because it's really hard. And that's not true.

We've seen more people as we start to, as our populations continue to age, as Millennials continue to age, and the population coming up after them, they're not asking the questions in the same way. They're not engaging in the same way. In fact, that disconnect when they hit something that they don't understand and they have more likelihood to disengage. This is where we find that when the cognitive load is heavy, when we're asking them to do the heavy lifting before they see the value of something.

So provide clear and immediate feedback within your, uh, within your experiences and acknowledge and finally acknowledge the negative emotions and address them.

So this one is incredibly important. When we start talking about, um, thought leadership and journey, the journey that our use teachers are going on within their own financial journey. The reality is, is remember we started this conversation with money is deeply, it's not logical. It's deeply human, it's deeply emotional. It is rooted in fears. Some of them rational, some of them not so much. There are concerns, there are blind spots. There are hurdles that individuals choices that our individuals, our users are having to make on what they do with their money. Money is finite and they, they don't have infinite amounts to be able to, to move around to all of our products.

There is negative emotions as they start to move through that, especially if you have a user who doesn't believe that they have what it takes to get from point A to point B. Even if they have the income, they have the disposable income, they have the resources, they have the actual financial literacy.

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If they don't believe that they can do it, they need that concern addressed for them. Address the concern, head on, acknowledge it. It's scary, it's hard, it's long. It's point B to point A or point A to point B is difficult or whatever the thing is that we're working to achieve, acknowledge the negative emotions and address them head on. Don't act like they're not there.

And that's it. So I'm gonna, I'm going to, they're cheering back there. Um, I'm gonna turn this over to you guys. I want to answer your questions. I have got so much swag. I am not carrying back with me to Florida, so I need you guys to ask questions. Fire away.

So in Utah, I work with our financial literacy class. We found women have a lower self-efficacy, but actually do better on our tests.

That Is correct.

And men are overconfident, but do worse, but they think they do better.

Yep.

Did your research have that divide?

It does. We, we did. So this sample was representative of the entire, we balanced it according to the census of what America looks like today. Um, that is true. We also have a report on our website, if you follow that link I gave you, it's a whole report on women and money that unpacks what's happening right there.

So we also found men are more willing to trade actively and trade more often. Yeah. And Women are more likely to do the S&P 500 passively and trade less often. Yep. That goes back to the confidence level. So risk averse versus not risk adverse.

Um, our male friends are comfortable with the risk more often. Females tend to make much better decisions when it comes to investing or how they think about their long-term goals. Um, but there is, there's a little bit more negative emotions around the risk.

And again, that's a great point. That has nothing to do with money per se. I think that's deeply cultural, deeply societal. There's lots of reasons why that is the way that it is. Address those things head on. If you have a question, raise your hand and I'll just run the mic over to you.

I probably don't need a mic.

You do actually, because we have folks on the video and they would love to be able to hear your questions. So if I didn't get away with it, you can't get away with it. So I deal with it. Is it on? Oh, I don't think it, oh, there, it's,

So I deal with financial education for our product, and one of the things we've noticed is to your point, women are more likely to come forward to our mentors and ask questions. How do we get the men to do the same?

That's coming as a man saying that, That is a great question. And I, I don't know that I have a direct answer for that except to say that there's lots of ways to feed information within the experience without requiring the user to make the first move.

Sometimes we've, we have seen within our clients and products, some of the things that work with male populations who may be hesitant or anybody really who's hesitant to come forward and ask questions is to change the conversation around. You're not asking a question because of the deficit. And you're understanding, you're asking your question for clarity in your, in your ability to make a wise decision changing.

This is where we see strategy and content work really well in the experiences that we build. Whenever we start to tailor the messaging away from, we're doing this to help you because you don't understand and moving it to you're doing the thing and here's the clarity you need. And it's, I think it can be as simple as a semantics switch.

Okay. That's it. We got one here. Oh yeah. Hi.

Hi. Um, this was really great, really insightful stuff. And thank you. The piece that I'm really interested on is the peer comparisons. Yeah. And if you have any examples of companies who are doing it really well and what some of the outcomes are from that.

That is a great question. Um, so we have seen, so in terms of companies that are doing it really well, I think this has been an area that's been difficult, um, for lots of reasons. Ellevest does a little bit of it, they'll help you understand what is a little bit, what's normal in terms of investing. Uh, as a female, Visa has awesome campaigns where they've normalized talking about money.

Fidelity's done the same thing. In fact, I think the success metrics for Fidelity have been really great where they've opened up the floor, it's been targeted specifically towards women in almost all of those cases. The comparisons that we're talking about here is the ability to, one of the ways that we've seen it done or we've talked about doing it, is within retirement savings itself. So when people start saving for retirement, it's like just a number. We, we as an industry we're really great at, like, you need X amount of money to retire, but that money doesn't really mean anything to the average user. It's just, I have $2 million when I retire, I have $5 million to retire. But is that enough? Is that good? Am I on track? Am I gonna be able to eat when I retire? Do I have anything to leave for my kids? We don't, we don't address kind of those gray areas.

And those are the instances where comparison helps us understand, are we tracking like we're supposed to? It doesn't have to be specific, it just needs to be a kind of a global comparison of other people who look like you, who are making the same amount of income, who have this kind of debt to income ratio. This is how much they're saving on average. And you'd be surprised how many times users are able to orient themselves and the decisions that they make when they have just a little bit more information of what normal is supposed to look like.

Yeah. Uh, with the access to information becoming exponentially easier with AI and, you know, Google, are you seeing the trends of people becoming more literate, people who weren't educated before, can they get, can they solve and get to that answer?

That's a great question. So in the larger report, we talk a little bit about, um, we address the idea of what's preventing people from being financially literate or increasing their financial literacy. Um, and then their use of fintech products has, since using it, hasn't increased or decreased or stayed the same.

Overwhelmingly participants said that using fintech products has increased their financial literacy. And when asked why their No. 1 response was, it makes me more aware of my money because we're not walking around with a pocket full of cash. Um, digital transactions can feel very removed from how our money is doing. We're not keeping it as close of an eye on it as we used to, even though we have far more inputs than we've ever had before. Um, so they do report that they are more aware.

Okay. I, I kind of have a two-part question on the comparisons. Okay. I've been talking about comparisons since before I started my fintech company, and I would always get mixed reviews where people wanted the comparison and other people felt like they'd feel like ashamed. I'm, I'm interested in kind of your insight around that.

And then you showed the comparisons around what looked like, you know, the savings amount and the milestones. Love, love the presentation, amazing deck. Um, but I'm, I'm thinking of more like the, the micro think of somebody that's like I've accomplished creating this company versus just somebody that I woke up at seven o'clock versus 10 o'clock. Uh, is there, is there any comparison data that you have or insights you have around like me, comparing some of the micro activity that people are having around like preliminary before, before you're achieving the milestone and, and engagement and like if, if my financial advisor sends me a to-do or a task for me to do something.

I mean, the No. 1 deterrent to creating a financial plan is that initial effort to gather data, which you guys kind of accentuated. Um, do you see some of, some of the comparisons or do you have any insights on the comparisons of kind of those preliminary, just filling basic stuff out to take that first step before you even get to those bigger goals?

So leverage, if I'm understanding you correctly, it's leveraging comparison in the preliminary steps versus how the progress on the goals.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Um, you know what, that's a great question and I don't have any data for that. I can tell you that, um, the preliminary steps, the kind of all of the baby steps that happen before a person decides to engage, there are, we have, some of our clients have talked about some of that, the friction, that's where the friction occurs, is getting before you can get them, once you get 'em engaged, there's lots of, you have lots of options, but before you get them engaged, not so much.

You're kind of at their will. Um, and there's, I think there are ways to do exactly what you're talking about in that, in the preliminary journey. But instead of charting every one of the baby steps, setting out a journey that celebrates those milestones in those baby steps, um, and making, even if it's an in-person or service design, that journey predictable. So if what I'm saying is, so if you are, if we're do filling out a plan, but you need my paperwork or you need my information before I fill out this, before I complete all the wealth management plan, making it easy for me to get from point A to point B and marking my ways as I go, you've made it X percent this way, you made it X percent this far, you have this, these steps left to go.

So as a user, whether it's an in-person service or a digital product, I don't have to wait to sign on and be engaged to understand where I am within the buying journey. The buying journey is very clear as before I ever engage.

Thank you.

Maybe one more. Yeah.

Hi, um, I'm Michelle.

Hi, Michelle.

Hi. Uh, this is fantastic data. Thank you for sharing all of it today. Um, could you say a little bit more around how you define financial literacy and how you might measure it? Yes.

Uh, yeah. So we, so actual financial literacy, we leveraged, like Dr. E said a standardized 12, I think it was a 12 question quiz that has been used across academic studies to measure financial literacy for perceived financial literacy.

Before they ever took the test, we asked them exactly, you know, on a scale of whatever --- I think it was above, above average to average to below average --- where do you think your financial literacy is from? A financial literacy definition was provided for each participant in the research, we defined it as understanding, um, you would know this question.

Yeah. Having the basic, um, understanding and principles to, you know, make the correct financial decisions, um, in your life on a day-to-day basis. So did you use the ARDI questions like the big three for an, Um, for the actual or the perceived? For the actual, for the actual, it was, um, a mores, um, it's 12-point index. Um, yeah, simple, simple questions. Yeah. But the definition for, for the perceived, um, was kind of every day, um, financial decisions.

Yeah. And the second part of your question, how do you measure it? So our financial professionals who participated in the research were quick to tell us. There is lots of ROI on financial literacy efforts, um, however they were split on whether it was measurable or intuited. So we knew that they were there, but they're a little ambiguous and hard for us to get a hold of. Um, outside. One of the proxies that we've used, uh, for financial literacy is confidence.

So their confidence level under getting feedback from the consumer front and center on their confidence level in managing different various layers of financial complexity. How confident do you feel in this? Um, and then also the emotions that they are from a contextual and behavior perspective, how stressed do you feel about money?

Okay. Last question.

Thank you. You, uh, hello? Yeah. Uh, in your research, did you gather, I saw one question that made me think maybe you did, but did you gather which of these, uh, participants owned businesses and did you see any statistical difference in their answers?

That is a great question. We did, uh, we did not take intakes on whether or not they were business owners. We did take their employment and profession, uh, but none of, we didn't classify as employer or employee. But that's a great question. Maybe for round two for this, we'll go back out and find and dig into the secret lives of business owners.

I can tell you're self-employed

Then, you know, I that is true. Um, two, I can tell you from, you know, being one, I think that there is lots of differences. So there's that and there is that. Okay.

We'll probably wrap so that we'll get to our next session. Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Leah. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. And take some swag, take all of it.