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Okay.
I guess that's the cue. Welcome everybody.
For the record, I don't know about on the other end near Danny and Mike, but I know the three of us are talking.
We can't see anybody, so we're gonna assume that either it's empty or full.
So we're grateful for you being here with us this afternoon.
We were just talking, we think that we're probably keeping everyone from a short nap and then dinner.
So we will be sure to fill all of that time for you.
My name is David Hall.
I am currently Digital Engagement Manager at Bank of Hawaii.
I've been there for about two years now.
Spent some time with MX prior to that, and then a long time with Zions Bank locally here in Utah.
I'm grateful to be here. I'll be the moderator in helping us work through these questions and excited to talk about engagement.
But before we do that, let's actually go through the line.
We'll start right next to me with Lea and have them introduce our panel.
Thank you. Lea Sims, I'm a digital product executive.
Most previously with Charles Schwab.
I led digital payments and money movement.
I've been in the space for about 20 years, so had the opportunity to see a lot of experiences and products grow.
It's been awesome and thank you all in the audience for the great conversations that we've had over the past couple of days.
I'm Justin Olson, CEO at Utah Community Credit Union.
Prior to being CEO, I was CIO for many years at the same organization and excited for today's panel.
I'm Danni Wright. I lead J.P. Morgan Chase in Utah and Idaho.
I've been with J.P. Morgan for about 15 years, and prior to what I do today, I was the Chief Operating Officer for the private bank.
So I'm excited to have a conversation about, customer engagement.
And I'm Mike Zell. I'm Senior Vice President of Digital at BECU.
We're a credit union in Washington state.
And we have about one, well, we crossed 1.5 million members this year.
And excited to be here.
Wow. Good. Well, I appreciate everyone.
I've a few old friends and new friends.
So grateful for the chance to have this conversation.
And to be fair, I know Mike and I, at least on the bookends of this, we were, we were at lunch talking, and we may go a little rogue of the conversation.
'cause I think that, you know, we're talking, we're gonna talk about loyalty and engagement, but I think that there's, there's probably a pre-question, and I think what I'm gonna try to do is as we stage out the question, so I'm gonna start with you, Lea, with this, and then we'll kind of go down the line.
But things are changing in our world and what we call loyalty and primacy certainly is I think, in flux and being redefined.
So what does that look like as you consider how we proceed as an industry and how should we be thinking about primacy maybe as a base baseline? Right, Right. So I think in my opinion, loyalty and primacy is you are the first place that clients or customers or members, depending on who you are, go to.
Now it's your job to continue to be, hold that primacy spot to offer up a solution for that.
And so I think that's where companies who want to be everything to everybody kind of have a hard time because you can't address that issue very quickly.
So for me, primacy is, if you came to me first and I made it too difficult for you to get an answer or I didn't give it to you, then you move along someplace else.
That's my opportunity. Lost.
Excellent. Justin? Yeah, I would say, you know, we've all, we're all seeing just how fragmented consumers' lives are becoming financially.
And so this idea of primacy, the idea of loyalty and engagement is really changing.
What are the key metrics that help, you know, if you are someone's primary financial institution these days, especially with Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and, and they probably have several FinTech relationships and don't even consider 'em financial applications.
It's just really a unique space and time.
And anyway, decided to discuss it further today. Good, Danni?
I like to think in personas.
So I like to think who, like, who, are the people in your life that you're loyal to and why are you loyal to them?
And usually it's because they show up for you consistently.
They understand you, they respect, you know, what makes you unique and your privacy.
And so I think as an organization, we try to reflect that through the services that we provide and the products that we offer and the way that we interact with our clients.
And I think privacy is becoming more and more of a concern, especially with just all the progress that's been made in AI.
Like all of the good stuff that's coming from that, I think it just opens up a world of potential possibility that your privacy will be violated.
And so I think as a banking organization, that has to be paramount with every relationship.
So Danni, I wanna follow up with you because I think that you represent private, you know mass affluent, more affluent.
Do you feel like the, the definition we just talked about primacy, do you feel like that applies to your mass retail customer as well as your, or is there a variant there that you think is important to note?
Yeah I think it's important to everyone.
I think it becomes particularly important when you've reached a certain level of wealth just because you become more of a target for fraud and privacy violation at that point.
So we do have sort of additional standards that we follow there.
But I think it's important to everyone.
And just thinking about like some of the major fraud schemes that we've seen, they're impacting, I would say the mass retail population more, either because they aren't ready for it or aren't aware of what's happening, they might be more vulnerable to certain types of financial crimes or fraud.
And so I think getting education out there is actually really important for the retail space as well.
Excellent. Thank you. Mike, how about you?
BECU, how are you defining or thinking about primacy and how that changes?
I think with the way we look at it is we want to be a partner to our members around their financial health.
And so this whole fragmentation of you know, accounts that people hold at different institutions, different products, I think, you know, we want to — the way we think about it is how do we connect those and those, you know, different accounts in the financial lives of our members, because we're not, they're not gonna hold everything with us.
And so how do we connect those things so that we can understand where our members are in terms of their finances, and then be a partner in that.
So that's, to me, how it's changing.
And, yeah, it's changing lives.
It, very different than it was, you know, 10 years ago.
You know, it's interesting for me, at Bank of Hawaii, one of the, and and I used to say this from particularly when I was on the MX side of things where we all think we're unique, but we're not really.
And I think that that's true to a certain degree.
I will say that geographically we have a really challenging market because we have some, our competition is very much right there on the islands.
And so, you don't see entrance from the mainland coming in, except for those who are more digitally inclined.
Of course there's products and services there that add value, but for us, that becomes a question, not so much of, like, we look at, I think, primacy from a perspective of who has the direct deposit, who's making payments, like who's using it as an operating account across the board.
But for us, the way that we're looking at this and starting to redefine is the next frontier is who knows our, who knows the customer better, and then who's showing up to give the recommendations, the products and services that matter most.
We feel like that's where the next real sort of battlefield will be, if you will.
It's just a matter of understanding, because you're right, we don't have every product and service that our consumers and customers might need.
And we're not trying to be that in that scenario, but we do want to be the institution that they trust the most and feel like they're getting that from.
So that's great. Okay.
So into a follow up to that then.
So with that, where customers, consumers have more choices, what's one thing that we should do to drive consumers to engage more with us?
And Justin, we'll start with you on this one.
Yeah, I think, David, you kinda leaned into it a little bit, but I think it's about deeply understanding the segments that you want to serve, understanding what they value, and then tailoring services, your products to meet what they value.
So an example you and I talked a little bit about earlier, UCCU launched a savings goal tool, like many financial institutions probably have.
We have one of the youngest account holder bases in the country at UCCU with two large universities in our footprint.
And so these students were really looking for a way to quickly and easily save money.
After launch we looked and overnight, without any advertising, just putting the tool in mobile banking, we had a thousand new accounts open just overnight, no employee involvement.
And then like a few weeks later, we started Driven by the goals. That Option, driven by just the goal, the option to create an automated savings goal for saving for books or tuition or emergency fund or whatever.
They could customize those goals, which was interesting.
This tool's gone gangbusters for us, by the way.
But it started with just understanding what students fundamentally needed and trying to deliver what they valued, which was something that was easy and something that was mobile and a way to save money.
But we looked through what people were saving money for 'cause they could customize that.
It was actually pretty touching to see, there was things like Julie's cancer treatments, new tattoo, trip to Disneyland, tuition, wedding ring for Lucy, whatever.
Yeah. But it was awesome, right?
To see, and I think it's that type of personalization, letting them do what they value and making it easy for them where this can really take off.
So as a follow up to that, like that's some intimate detail — Yeah, right.
That they've made available to you. Totally.
How do you think, like in terms of that engagement then, have you used that sort of next layer of information to either reach out to, or has it affected kind of a product or service strategy in any way, or how has it affected the way that you serve your members? Yeah, it totally has. So for example, someone says, Hey, I'm saving for a down payment on my first house.
Let's send them a message and say, Hey, it looks like you're 80% of the way there.
Let's waive your closing costs. Get even closer. Wow. Right?
Or how can we use that data?
Looks like you're saving for a new car.
Hey, our rates right now, we have a deal.
We just have an auto loan special.
But making it personalized and contextual to what they're saving for is exactly what we're trying to do.
Excellent. Good. Yeah. Danni, how about you from an engaging perspective?
Yeah. I think personalization is something we're thinking a lot about too.
And I think it goes back to when trying to think about customer engagement.
Like there's, what you're really looking for is like attention.
There's so many things that distract us for our attention.
There's so many different places that customers can go.
And so being a place where, you can use your data to create a personalized experience.
So it's really knowing what does your customer need, but also what are their preferences?
And then being able to find an experience that meets both of those.
I actually love this idea about goals.
'cause I think finding the why with money.
So what, like, what is the job to be done with money?
It is often a goal that's very personal.
And being able to kind of identify that, but also help them along the journey, I think that's been really important for us as well.
Good. Thank you, Mike.
Yeah. One of the things that we were trying to work on is, is actually how we look at engagement and do less looking at engagement by feature or engagement by channel, and really taking more of a member or a customer journey perspective.
And I think that's a journey for us to go through, but I think it's helping us look at our customers, you know, differently and those experiences.
And how do we get people into those?
How do we engage people better, whether they're a new member or customer.
So onboarding experience, that'd be one.
And looking across the different channels.
I think historically we've just been very focused on channels and features and taking that mindset, it just allowed us to engage more of the organization.
And how do we, you know, reach our engagement goals?
'cause we do have very specific, you know, goals we set as an organization around, you know, levels of engagement, digital engagement that we're, trying to drive against.
And then, you know, bringing the organization together to look at those journeys and then say, okay, how is the organization gonna operate differently around that?
And that's been, that's been really helpful.
It's gonna take us a while to get there as an organization because, you know, historically we've just really been very feature oriented, very channel oriented.
And I think that that's sort of like the, that's an evolution, right?
Like you have to, you've gotta start with the big rocks and then you start filling in the gaps where you get to that level.
So I'm curious, I'm gonna ask the audience, how many of you have existing customer journeys you've deployed in your institutions?
Raise them high. Okay.
How many of you would be open to, if there was, like, if you could say like, here, like just to give you a start point.
Like here's five life stage journeys or personas that could give you a start point.
Awesome. That's what, that's what a lot of — Mike and I were talking about that.
Okay. Lea, tell me your thoughts on, about engagement. I think engagement's unique, especially coming from enterprise FIs that were very large because we would gauge engagement or our KPIs were different per sometimes channel.
So kind of to what you said, Mike, sometimes per product and sometimes per life stage, we never really aligned as an enterprise on what that engagement model's going to look like.
I'd say we tried but there wasn't that consistency.
So what is engagement?
You could probably go and ask them today, and they're measuring it people, everyone's measuring it, but is it the right thing to be measuring?
I'm not sure that engage, there's gonna be one engagement model for FIs that are striving to be multi-year, multi-product type of FI for those people.
So I think it's gonna be an evolution for FIs to kind of hone in what you all were talking about.
You get really, you get more, not completely, completely narrow scope, but you get more refined on who you're targeting and what you want to be if you don't want to have that product at your bank.
I think that that's something that big FIs need to look at.
So I think it — the conversation — I think begs an interesting question, which is the first a statement like, it's harder to create a journey or a series, even if it's a product suite and a service suite for a customer segment.
I think most institutions have a private banking offering and a high net worth offering, small business commercial, like we do think a decent job of creating these sort of islands, but there's a whole lot of customers that are in between those islands, sort of in between those stages.
So how do you, and, we'll, Daniel, we'll start with you on this, is how do we then think about, or how should we be thinking about progressing those customers and attempting to maintain some pathing or some journey that we want to help guide customers through?
Mm-Hmm. I mean, we just, I just listed off like four different segments and there's a lot more in between there, but what does that look like without it being overwhelming? Mm-Hmm.
We tried to identify what are the events that take someone from one stage to the next stage, and then, sort of putting resources around that.
So one example for us is we work with a lot of business owners.
We have the business bank, and then we have the commercial bank.
And there's many business owners that have their businesses through there.
And some of them are not high net worth yet, but if they wanted to sell their company, they certainly would become so and so within the private bank, we have like a whole, we call it like a think tank.
We have a whole bunch of advice around pre-transaction planning.
We have former trust and state attorneys that work with us and help our clients.
Everything, you know, I won't go down the list, but many services like those.
And we realize is if we take those services that live in the private bank and we offer those to business owners that might not be currently in the business bank or in the private bank, that helps facilitate them moving up to the next segment.
And so it helps the customer because they're actually gonna receive a great service that's gonna help them achieve a life goal or whatever, you know, their journey is.
But then it also helps us ensure that we're at the forefront of that, event with them, and we're providing them the services that they need to really come into another segment.
So I'd say, say it another way is sort of identifying the services that exist within each line of business and finding ways to cross sell and also offer those to different segments to sort of create more of a comprehensive, holistic offering.
And I'm gonna, follow up with that because obviously, not every private banking customer has the opportunity, or let me say it this way, private banking officer may not have the opportunity to have kinda that deep level of engagement with everybody in their portfolio.
Mm-Hmm. So how do you address those who have those needs who may not have the opportunity to speak directly with an officer?
We have a lot of content. I mean, and I think we try to think multi-channel too.
So like, maybe your private banker is speaking to you directly or on the phone or in person or over zoom, but maybe you're also receiving our newsletters or our content, or maybe there's webinars we're inviting you to, so we're trying to kind of like diversify the way that we're sharing you this information, sharing this information with you.
But then we're also sort of looking at the insights that we have as an organization about your own financial picture and the data that matters to you.
Because I think that's more compelling is if we can say, okay, we've analyzed your portfolio.
Here are the ways that you could be saving money or earning a higher rate.
And if we're playing that back to you, I think that kind of is a little bit more compelling to get that engagement.
So we do try to think about many different ways of outreach, and then based off of what the customer sort of responds to, that's what we lean more into.
One other thing I'll highlight just 'cause I feel like no panel is complete unless you talk about AI.
We're using AI and we use it as a copilot to help identify things that a private banker should be talking to their customers about.
And I actually think it's a real benefit not only to the bankers, but also to the customers too.
Because you've got a personal banker who's obviously human, who's gonna try to their best to understand your portfolio and, you know, use lots of tools and resources.
But in the background you've got some AI that's also trying to understand your portfolio and recognize opportunities for you.
So I think the, the marriage of AI and bankers, I think that's something that we'll really see more of in the future.
Excellent. Good. Mike, how about you?
How are you trying to navigate?
Or are you navigating all of these different potential customer personas and journeys? Yeah, I was gonna add on Danielle's point, just bring out the point of, and how to talk about data.
You know, I think so much of it for us is unlocking the data that's trapped within the platforms or within the functional areas, whether that's in the business side or the consumer side.
So we can get that view of our member or our customer.
And so we have a lot of work to do there.
We have a lot of work, you know, around legacy systems, and I know that's been talked about, at this conference.
So we have work under the underlying data and platforms that we have to get done.
But the, at the same time then deliver on, you know, the experiences and build those experiences for our members or our customers.
And you know, I think it does get back to us around looking at those primary journeys that, you know, our customers are going on with us.
And really then to try to align the organization around those different pieces while also acknowledging, you know, the needs of different product groups around, you know, whether that's the mortgage team or consumer lending, you know, they have needs and goals that they're trying to achieve for the bus business and, you know, and our members.
But, you know, it's tricky.
Like, that's, you know, it's challenging trying to, you know, get that alignment around the customer, across the organization, because not everyone's, you know, perfectly aligned.
You know, we're not perfectly aligned around the goals, but, yeah.
But that's how we're, you know, some of the things that we're working on to do that.
Good. Thank you. Lea. I'm gonna foot stump on data.
So data is important.
And if you map out or string out all of those journeys, a couple of tests that we branded, actually both FIs that were successful, is if you look at the cohort of the individuals and identify if they purchased a new house, and of those individuals that purchased a new house post six months, 18 months, which of that peer group had an increase in operational dollars in savings, dollars in investment accounts?
And if you look at what they did, and you're able to present that information back to the other individuals who just purchased a house, you can help them on their journey as well.
And I find too that, well, we found that that also increased the loyalty because you were able to provide them with information on people like them that kind of excelled after event.
Was it switch a job, buy a house, things like that.
And sometimes it was a product play, sometimes it was a savings play, sometimes it was all ulterior kind of, you know, insurance items and things like that.
But I think you're spot on with the data as you use that you absolutely can string it across your journeys and bring people along.
Looking at that cohort mix.
I think it's interesting because, you know, we, again — earlier conversation, we look at all of the advancements in technology have been really gauged around helping consumers understand their finances better, presenting the information to them in a more concise and clear way, more channels to give it to them.
But over in all of the decades of technological advancement in this space, consumers are not actually getting smarter as a whole in their finances.
I mean, there are pockets certainly of people excelling and leveraging the technology, but on the whole, like, consumers just aren't getting better at their finances.
And so I really love what you talked about, because what that does is, is exactly the, that they expect from us, which is, here's something that could be beneficial for you the most of some of those, at least those people who you've seen.
Here's a pattern that we want to then make aware and create awareness for our other customers who've started on the same path.
They may not have known that that's even something they should be pursuing.
So you're not only giving them the service, but you're helping bring awareness and education, right. And enablement around. So you get engagement and you get loyalty.
That's right. You crack that nut. I love it. That's great.
Good. Okay. Justin, wrap us up on it. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think what I'm feeling, and I think what's being said around data is that we have lots of it.
We just have to stop being tone deaf, right?
Like, when we reach out to a consumer and we're not speaking to them in a way that's personalized, they're gonna disengage.
'cause it just becomes white noise.
It's not a meaningful message to them.
But if the reverse is true and we add real value to where they're at in their journey, that that creates value for them and they're gonna engage that way.
And then you can use that engagement to get more data and then tailor it even further.
So I think it's just a journey to create those journeys.
But yeah, I think a lot of times we're tone deaf and historically as an industry have been in the way we interact with consumers as just like, everyone's gonna get this same message from us.
And I think it's gonna get even more.
It's gonna rise to the top because as consumers, everything we purchase is starting to hone in on what we need.
So if you get an ad, if you get an email and you, it doesn't fit your life right now at all.
Yeah. The first thing you always think is, why am I getting this?
Yeah. So our clients are gonna start doing that a lot more.
'cause it happens all the time in other places as well.
So they're gonna start to recognize it.
And I think that there's, because there's an element of this where going back to, you know, our keynotes earlier that there is gonna be some failure in that, but that's where we get to learn.
So the obvious ones, obviously I'm not going to recommend, maybe a mortgage if, I don't know.
Now I'm not, I can't come up with a good example, but if it doesn't fit, I actually offer a more direct deposit. Right, get a new house.
Exactly. Yeah.
If it's an obvious thing, I probably shouldn't do it.
But then there are, there's this element to where we've gotta start somewhere that, you know, progress over perfection is much more critical for us if we wait until we feel like we've got the perfect model, which, and there's a balance there operationally, just from an execution perspective, from a regulatory and, and a privacy perspective, we wanna make sure that we're, we still have to check those boxes appropriately, but we should begin and then learn from those things.
The other thing I'm hearing is we've been through this, is that, this is how I think we try to think about this at Bank of Hawaii is that while we have, we talk about journeys, but what we actually have isn't it really just one journey?
Especially if you position it from like a life stage perspective, you're born and you're gonna die and there's a whole lot of stuff in between.
So where can we help you along the way, right?
And as we see those milestones occur, I think that's where we, like at Bank of Hawaii, we've created personas, not necessarily, and we want to create a journey that is probably covers 70% of our customers, like as they work through this path.
And then there will be all of these nuances.
And so we're not necessarily gonna have a set path for every single of the thousand different variations, but we're starting first with basically a cradle to grave journey and financial service products that could be valuable and then start there.
For us, that's how we're trying to think about it.
And that it's not that you are like, your journey is still the same, but as you move into different stages of that life, your needs become different.
And then that's where sort of the, a different persona potentially takes over.
Hey and, David, you know, we were talking at lunch, it's, I feel like there's plenty of insights out there, right?
In terms of like the data, right?
And it's really, you know, to me it's less about all the insights and the additional insights, but how do we get action out of it for our customers?
Like how do they, how do we give them the insight, but then, okay, what's the follow through to get a change, right?
To make change for them happen?
And that's to me the really hard part, right?
To figure that out. And so I, you know, we're talking at lunch, like, you know, I think there's just work to be done there, at least for our institution of like, okay, now how do we help our, you know, our members, you know, make different choices, you know, help them, you know, in their, you know, financial journey.
I think of it almost like a, and I love the panel's thoughts on this.
Like, to me it's maybe not to be contrarian to Wes earlier, but I'm gonna be a little bit maybe, but it's not so much the, because if we’re relying on the consumers to take action, if you think about it just from a business perspective, I don't know that we're ever gonna get our ROI out of the technology investments that we make.
If we're dependent on the consumers being the ones to take action, that add value to me, I think that the greater opportunity is if we as the financial institution as their provider, their trusted advisor, we then can create guidance.
And then what it becomes is, yes, there is an action that the consumer takes, but it really is more of a confirmation.
It becomes an element where we say, there's information that says, this is where you are, here's where others like you are, yes or no.
Do you wanna proceed? Do you wanna pursue this? Yes or no?
Would you like us to help you with it? Yes or no?
Even if it's just more information, right?
We wanna make sure that there's something that is, we're not always expecting the consumer to just know what the right answer is.
But what we're giving them some guidance around this is what could be right for you.
So what do you, you know, what do you think of that?
And then give them an opportunity to confirm that thing versus needing to take the action to go make the change happen.
I think it's important for banks to remember.
Not many people wanna bank.
They wanna be with their family, they want to have things, they wanna take care of their family and their children.
They don't want to bank.
So a lot of times I've been in conversations where we've had to step out of, well, here's what this person needs.
And it, you know, it's the transaction experience, blah, blah, the experience and all those things.
And we get caught up in our bank legalese, the person didn't come wanting to get a loan, they want a car.
So start with that and talk to them like that.
That's a great point. Yeah. David, one other thing I was gonna say is I think historically journey mapping, the customer journey has been very linear, right?
But consumers' lives are not linear.
And so I think that's where AI and machine learning can help you be more dynamic and tailored to their situation.
And, you know, I just think that you have to inspect where people are falling out of the anticipated journey you have, if it's very linear and figure out where you’re tone deaf and fix it. Just a Comment. No, that's good.
Any other comments on that?
Well said. Okay.
So, some of you may have seen this, this was a couple of months ago, but MX data shows that customers who engage in certain activities within the first 30 days, so this is in a digital engagement, digital experience, are more engaged a year later.
And, they talk about certain activities, it's direct deposit, it's setting up a bill pay, it's aggregating accounts.
There's just, there's a handful of things that I think they listed five things.
As you think about this relative to your institutions, do you find that to be true?
And maybe what are those activities that you find, tend to be, greater indicators of long-term engagement?
And I think, Mike, I'm on you at this point.
Well, I might answer this a little differently.
Like, we've been very focused on, you know, shifting or not shifting, but, you know, as people become more digital, we know that they're less engaged, surprisingly, or not surprisingly, industry stats on, consumers that originate in a, you know, in the retail channel versus digital.
So we're very focused as we see that shift to digital of how do we get our members more digitally engaged.
One stat or some of the work that we were doing was interesting was that we found if we had campaigns within our branches to engage, you know, members or, you know, customers at that point that were obviously not taking advantage of our analog, we'll call it analog channel, that was one of the most effective things that we did, you know, we've done to convert them into, you know, digital members.
So, you know, that's one of the tactics that we've done, but we've become very focused on that, you know, onboarding experience.
Like how do we, and that first 30 days of someone becoming a member or a customer, you know, what are those things that we can do?
So, you know, we don't have all the capabilities there.
It's not, you know, what I would describe as the best experience.
We have features, we have direct deposit switching, but is that experience like a seamless one that, no, it's not.
And so, you know, now we're looking at those, you know, kind of back to that journey, like what is that journey?
What's the best way to get those, you know, those new members engaged on things like, you know, direct deposit switching, which are high indicators of, you know, engagement, loyalty and so forth.
So, yeah, I love that.
I dunno if that answered your question. That's how we're That's great. No, it's good. And I think that, to be fair, we're probably all at varying degrees of this, right?
Like, I don't know that many people have it perfectly yet.
If you do, you should come up here. Anybody? Yeah. Yeah.
Tell us. Onboarding. Perfect.
I would say is anybody from Capital One? Opened an account recently there, and I felt it was pretty perfect actually.
But I will say to that end, like I opened an account personally on Capital One.
I got an email, I have a Capital One credit card.
But they offered me a checking account and they said, if you open it — it was really simple.
Open a checking account, set up two direct deposits in the first 75 days that are at least $500, and activate your debit card, you'll get $250.
And I was like, done, right?
$250, that's easy money.
Like why wouldn't I? I also told all my kids to do it, right?
So it's like this, there's no reason why this shouldn't be if they're giving away this kind of money.
And that was great. Like, that was a great experience.
I got it set up, seamless.
They had some information on me already, which, it made it so, so easy.
I will say though, what has actually gotten me is my debit card got sent.
So I live in two places.
It got sent to the other place where I wasn't.
So I called and I changed my address on in the app and then I called and said, I need to get a new debit card sent.
They verified me within minutes.
It was on its way, like Federal Express, no extra cost.
Now they've got me. 'cause I think that this goes back to what Lea was talking about, which is there are other processes that sometimes get in our way.
So it's not, it doesn't end there.
This is certainly one of the most critical, like the first opportunity we have to create a great experience and a great first impression.
But it continues after that.
And I was just expecting them to say, like, I literally was expecting them to say, well, you just changed your address, so we have to wait 30 days before we can mail it to you, or we have to send you through this higher level of verification.
Because that's the kind of thing that right now Bank of Hawaii has to do.
Like, we're actually working through this where it's like, how do we verify them so that we can get them at a better place, but like, who wants to wait 45 days to be able to close an account or order a debit card because of that?
So anyway, so that's how I think about that.
But, okay.
Lea, so from your perspective, what are kind of key behaviors we want to engage consumers at the beginning?
Yeah, onboarding's very important.
If I can sit down and I can do it quickly. Fabulous.
To your point, I think an incentive with steps, just guide them through.
I mean, sometimes clients don't know what they want or how your product beats your competitors.
You know, Starbucks took people and taught them how to order a coffee very quickly.
So if you think about packaging up where your client is and what you would like for them to have if they got a credit card and you wanna get the checking, make it simple.
Do it that way. Because, you know, in this experience, Dave said it, he said, you got me, guess what?
They got loyalty from you right then and there, right?
And it wasn't the $250. It was, the the debit card.
It was the debit card. And so sometimes we have to invest in what I call, not the, not money makers, but low money makers, because FedEx, to do that was expensive.
You got a new card you probably provided to do that, you had FedEx to do it.
That's not an inexpensive thing to do. Mm-Hmm.
But they got you. Yeah. All of that.
And so the, not the, the low money makers, you're investing for the long-term benefit.
Excellent. Justin. Yeah, I think you clued in on something I've thought a lot about when it comes to onboarding, which is, it's gotta be easy.
It's gotta be so easy.
And it, and I think sometimes in our industry, the complexity of the regulations, the things we have to put in the bird seed to explain the product and all this stuff, and it just gets in the consumer's way.
And I remember someone, it might have been at an MX event, but they showed an Apple box with an iPhone in it, and they showed a Windows phone box with the two boxes.
Every side of the Windows box was covered in fine print of all this different stuff about their phone.
And the Apple box was just so clean, right?
And I don't know, I didn't see many unboxings on YouTube of Windows phones, right?
Right. But people were always filming themselves, opening the Apple phone.
I think simplicity's really key, but doing it in a way that again, is kind of tailored to their situation.
Like you were probably in Hawaii, right?
So they had to overnight you something to Hawaii, which meant a ton to you.
And in the long run, if they get loyalty from you for that really didn't cost them much at all.
So, and to be fair, i I, I don't have a lot of money with them.
Like, it wasn't like I was, I wasn't a high value customer, right?
Yeah. This is something that they just do for their customers.
Yeah. And I think that's where onboarding is, is starting with longevity in mind.
What do we have to do up front to make sure they want us to around forever?
What are some things we could do?
Danny, how about you? I actually really like that you're raising the stat, like the first 30 days are the most important because to me it's almost like the same thing when you meet someone, like you're forming a first impression.
And those are often hard to change later on.
Um, so I agree with everything that's been said, and that's certainly things that I think about and, and we're focused on.
Um, what I would add to that is, I, I feel like in the first 30 days, maybe the first 60 days, you have an opportunity to delight and surprise.
And I think certainly with J.P. Morgan, when people show up, they assume like big bank, there's gonna be a lot of regulatory red tape and a lot of like inflexibility.
And certainly that's the case with many things that we can't change because of, you know, regulatory compliance.
But things that we can change, I really do, um, try to make a point to like get creative in the first 30 days or the first 60 days where we're really trying to get to know someone.
I'll just share a really quick example of like a regulatory thing we could not change, but we tried to figure out a way to make it different.
In the rare case that someone needs to sign something.
And I heard, by the way, Lizzie in the panel before this, talking about signing a joint account, I'm like cringing because, um, there are some cases where you have to do things like that.
I mean, why can't we show up to someone's house at their doorstep with the notary?
Like, why can't we make it easy that way?
Or if they have to actually sign documents, can we send it in a package that has like a care package with it or some, you know, some chocolates or something to make it more fun.
Um, so I think, I just think that showing the client, the customer who you are in the first 30 or 60 days, really does build that trust.
And I think it's an investment that we should make at the beginning, especially because for all of us, we wanna keep these clients for as long as we can.
And so I do think, um, showing them who you are and really showing up in the first 30 days really does make a difference. Great.
Thank you. Um, I'm gonna, there's gonna be one question that we'll, that we'll take, which I want give everyone a chance to think about, which is, what is like your number one metric for engagement, knowing that you're succeeding at engaging customers.
So think about that, but we won't open to any questions that the audience has unless that was your question.
Okay. Well then with that, let's, um, uh, Lee, we'll start with you.
Sure. We're circled all the way back around, so I kind of think it's a, a two for, for me.
So engagement is about touches with the fi but also at the same time an increase in funds or savings accounts, credit card usage.
So there's, there's not only how many times have you come, but did you just check your balance and your balance continued to go lower?
So you weren't really engaging, you were just looking at how much money you had, or did you come and do other things and get another product, have a direct deposit to your savings account for your emergency savings goal, things like that.
So for me, it, it's two.
Excellent. Justin. Yeah, I think it's about growth.
It's about growth and utilization.
So if you had to pick one, I'd probably say growth portfolio growth is probably the biggest indicator you're well engaged with, with your people, with your account holders.
If the portfolios are growing, they're engaged.
And I think that's key.
I would secondary to that, say utilization.
So you want to see swipes and you want to see spend, account, relationship activity going up and then customer satisfaction or people satisfied.
And I think if they're really satisfied, they're using you more and more and your portfolios are growing, people are talking with their money and they're engaged. I think those are the keys.
Excellent. Danny, We look a lot of things.
Some of what was mentioned, um, for me, the two primary that we focus on is wallet share.
Um, but that's another metric for growth.
And then I really love the net promoter score, like how likely is someone to recommend you to their friends or their family?
Generally they'll only do that if they're having a very positive experience to the point where they're willing to put their name out there and recommend you as a service provider.
Um, so I'd like taking a look at that as well to identify just how, how good we're the, you know, the level of service we're providing to a customer and how, um, how, how we're showing up for them.
So I have a quick follow on.
So when you talk about wallet shares, does that, do you, does your, do your teams have predefined like these, these are the products and services that we want to engage our customers in in the first X months or, or over the relationship?
Is there something like they start to kind of, this is a bad analogy, but they start to color in the slices of the pie that they know they're, they're broadening that?
Or is it just simply how do we see them just growing relationship with us?
I think it's more of growth.
I mean, there's certainly many different customer types and some will never get to a hundred percent wallet share, and that's okay, that's fine.
We kind of meet people with where they're at.
What we care more about is have we shared with them the services that they're eligible for and the services that could make their lives easier.
And if we've shared that and they still decide not to, I mean, that's their own decision.
But, um, so we focus more on just growth net promoter score, customer satisfaction, and also like we really evaluate ourselves on performance and so how, how well we're performing for the customer.
Um, but I think if you do all that really well, the tendency is to gain more wallet share because someone knows you're doing a good job, and so they'll, they'll bring more assets to you.
Excellent. Mike, bring us home.
I, I'd have similar answers to, to, to what the, the panelists said.
I, I would just add one thing that I really like to have.
So whatever the measurement is, I want to benchmark for it.
Um, because I want to know like what good is.
Um, so whenever, you know, we're looking at, and we have different measures of engagement, I want something that I can benchmark outside of our institution because, you know, my leadership is always gonna ask me if I give them a number around engagement or wallet share.
Um, they're gonna say, well, is that good? And what is good?
And so I really, um, whenever I can find benchmarks, I, I, I, you know, try to get those so I know how we're doing against that.
That's good. Well, hopefully, um, thank you all.
I appreciate you taking the time and it was a pleasure for me to sit up here with all of you.
Um, and thank you for sharing what your organizations are doing, your own thoughts around this.
Um, I think one, one thing I'll, I'll say maybe in wrapping up is what I take from this is that we're all, we're all in the same boat, right?
For good or bad. All of us are working towards the same thing.
And it feels like we're all in about the same place.
And I know even through all the other sessions we've had, there's a lot of like head nodding because we understand and we, we, we get where we're at and we're all moving towards that.
So I, I can always speak from, I, I, I think I can speak for our panel.
If you have questions, you wanna reach out to us, um, please do so.
We, we certainly would love to engage in, in conversation to understand what's working well for you, if you wanna know more about what's working well for us.
But, um, yeah, I just appreciate the time and appreciate all of you being here with us today.
Thank you.
Can We Actually Grow Engagement and Loyalty?
Growing engagement and loyalty among consumers with very diverse preferences, demographics, and behaviors isn’t always easy. And, while consumers may not always take steps to close a financial account that doesn’t meet their needs, there are thousands of accounts that simply exist but remain unused. So how do you actually drive engagement and make sure your account is the one they turn to most often?
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Transcript
I guess that's the cue. Welcome everybody.
For the record, I don't know about on the other end near Danny and Mike, but I know the three of us are talking.
We can't see anybody, so we're gonna assume that either it's empty or full.
So we're grateful for you being here with us this afternoon.
We were just talking, we think that we're probably keeping everyone from a short nap and then dinner.
So we will be sure to fill all of that time for you.
My name is David Hall.
I am currently Digital Engagement Manager at Bank of Hawaii.
I've been there for about two years now.
Spent some time with MX prior to that, and then a long time with Zions Bank locally here in Utah.
I'm grateful to be here. I'll be the moderator in helping us work through these questions and excited to talk about engagement.
But before we do that, let's actually go through the line.
We'll start right next to me with Lea and have them introduce our panel.
Thank you. Lea Sims, I'm a digital product executive.
Most previously with Charles Schwab.
I led digital payments and money movement.
I've been in the space for about 20 years, so had the opportunity to see a lot of experiences and products grow.
It's been awesome and thank you all in the audience for the great conversations that we've had over the past couple of days.
I'm Justin Olson, CEO at Utah Community Credit Union.
Prior to being CEO, I was CIO for many years at the same organization and excited for today's panel.
I'm Danni Wright. I lead J.P. Morgan Chase in Utah and Idaho.
I've been with J.P. Morgan for about 15 years, and prior to what I do today, I was the Chief Operating Officer for the private bank.
So I'm excited to have a conversation about, customer engagement.
And I'm Mike Zell. I'm Senior Vice President of Digital at BECU.
We're a credit union in Washington state.
And we have about one, well, we crossed 1.5 million members this year.
And excited to be here.
Wow. Good. Well, I appreciate everyone.
I've a few old friends and new friends.
So grateful for the chance to have this conversation.
And to be fair, I know Mike and I, at least on the bookends of this, we were, we were at lunch talking, and we may go a little rogue of the conversation.
'cause I think that, you know, we're talking, we're gonna talk about loyalty and engagement, but I think that there's, there's probably a pre-question, and I think what I'm gonna try to do is as we stage out the question, so I'm gonna start with you, Lea, with this, and then we'll kind of go down the line.
But things are changing in our world and what we call loyalty and primacy certainly is I think, in flux and being redefined.
So what does that look like as you consider how we proceed as an industry and how should we be thinking about primacy maybe as a base baseline? Right, Right. So I think in my opinion, loyalty and primacy is you are the first place that clients or customers or members, depending on who you are, go to.
Now it's your job to continue to be, hold that primacy spot to offer up a solution for that.
And so I think that's where companies who want to be everything to everybody kind of have a hard time because you can't address that issue very quickly.
So for me, primacy is, if you came to me first and I made it too difficult for you to get an answer or I didn't give it to you, then you move along someplace else.
That's my opportunity. Lost.
Excellent. Justin? Yeah, I would say, you know, we've all, we're all seeing just how fragmented consumers' lives are becoming financially.
And so this idea of primacy, the idea of loyalty and engagement is really changing.
What are the key metrics that help, you know, if you are someone's primary financial institution these days, especially with Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and, and they probably have several FinTech relationships and don't even consider 'em financial applications.
It's just really a unique space and time.
And anyway, decided to discuss it further today. Good, Danni?
I like to think in personas.
So I like to think who, like, who, are the people in your life that you're loyal to and why are you loyal to them?
And usually it's because they show up for you consistently.
They understand you, they respect, you know, what makes you unique and your privacy.
And so I think as an organization, we try to reflect that through the services that we provide and the products that we offer and the way that we interact with our clients.
And I think privacy is becoming more and more of a concern, especially with just all the progress that's been made in AI.
Like all of the good stuff that's coming from that, I think it just opens up a world of potential possibility that your privacy will be violated.
And so I think as a banking organization, that has to be paramount with every relationship.
So Danni, I wanna follow up with you because I think that you represent private, you know mass affluent, more affluent.
Do you feel like the, the definition we just talked about primacy, do you feel like that applies to your mass retail customer as well as your, or is there a variant there that you think is important to note?
Yeah I think it's important to everyone.
I think it becomes particularly important when you've reached a certain level of wealth just because you become more of a target for fraud and privacy violation at that point.
So we do have sort of additional standards that we follow there.
But I think it's important to everyone.
And just thinking about like some of the major fraud schemes that we've seen, they're impacting, I would say the mass retail population more, either because they aren't ready for it or aren't aware of what's happening, they might be more vulnerable to certain types of financial crimes or fraud.
And so I think getting education out there is actually really important for the retail space as well.
Excellent. Thank you. Mike, how about you?
BECU, how are you defining or thinking about primacy and how that changes?
I think with the way we look at it is we want to be a partner to our members around their financial health.
And so this whole fragmentation of you know, accounts that people hold at different institutions, different products, I think, you know, we want to — the way we think about it is how do we connect those and those, you know, different accounts in the financial lives of our members, because we're not, they're not gonna hold everything with us.
And so how do we connect those things so that we can understand where our members are in terms of their finances, and then be a partner in that.
So that's, to me, how it's changing.
And, yeah, it's changing lives.
It, very different than it was, you know, 10 years ago.
You know, it's interesting for me, at Bank of Hawaii, one of the, and and I used to say this from particularly when I was on the MX side of things where we all think we're unique, but we're not really.
And I think that that's true to a certain degree.
I will say that geographically we have a really challenging market because we have some, our competition is very much right there on the islands.
And so, you don't see entrance from the mainland coming in, except for those who are more digitally inclined.
Of course there's products and services there that add value, but for us, that becomes a question, not so much of, like, we look at, I think, primacy from a perspective of who has the direct deposit, who's making payments, like who's using it as an operating account across the board.
But for us, the way that we're looking at this and starting to redefine is the next frontier is who knows our, who knows the customer better, and then who's showing up to give the recommendations, the products and services that matter most.
We feel like that's where the next real sort of battlefield will be, if you will.
It's just a matter of understanding, because you're right, we don't have every product and service that our consumers and customers might need.
And we're not trying to be that in that scenario, but we do want to be the institution that they trust the most and feel like they're getting that from.
So that's great. Okay.
So into a follow up to that then.
So with that, where customers, consumers have more choices, what's one thing that we should do to drive consumers to engage more with us?
And Justin, we'll start with you on this one.
Yeah, I think, David, you kinda leaned into it a little bit, but I think it's about deeply understanding the segments that you want to serve, understanding what they value, and then tailoring services, your products to meet what they value.
So an example you and I talked a little bit about earlier, UCCU launched a savings goal tool, like many financial institutions probably have.
We have one of the youngest account holder bases in the country at UCCU with two large universities in our footprint.
And so these students were really looking for a way to quickly and easily save money.
After launch we looked and overnight, without any advertising, just putting the tool in mobile banking, we had a thousand new accounts open just overnight, no employee involvement.
And then like a few weeks later, we started Driven by the goals. That Option, driven by just the goal, the option to create an automated savings goal for saving for books or tuition or emergency fund or whatever.
They could customize those goals, which was interesting.
This tool's gone gangbusters for us, by the way.
But it started with just understanding what students fundamentally needed and trying to deliver what they valued, which was something that was easy and something that was mobile and a way to save money.
But we looked through what people were saving money for 'cause they could customize that.
It was actually pretty touching to see, there was things like Julie's cancer treatments, new tattoo, trip to Disneyland, tuition, wedding ring for Lucy, whatever.
Yeah. But it was awesome, right?
To see, and I think it's that type of personalization, letting them do what they value and making it easy for them where this can really take off.
So as a follow up to that, like that's some intimate detail — Yeah, right.
That they've made available to you. Totally.
How do you think, like in terms of that engagement then, have you used that sort of next layer of information to either reach out to, or has it affected kind of a product or service strategy in any way, or how has it affected the way that you serve your members? Yeah, it totally has. So for example, someone says, Hey, I'm saving for a down payment on my first house.
Let's send them a message and say, Hey, it looks like you're 80% of the way there.
Let's waive your closing costs. Get even closer. Wow. Right?
Or how can we use that data?
Looks like you're saving for a new car.
Hey, our rates right now, we have a deal.
We just have an auto loan special.
But making it personalized and contextual to what they're saving for is exactly what we're trying to do.
Excellent. Good. Yeah. Danni, how about you from an engaging perspective?
Yeah. I think personalization is something we're thinking a lot about too.
And I think it goes back to when trying to think about customer engagement.
Like there's, what you're really looking for is like attention.
There's so many things that distract us for our attention.
There's so many different places that customers can go.
And so being a place where, you can use your data to create a personalized experience.
So it's really knowing what does your customer need, but also what are their preferences?
And then being able to find an experience that meets both of those.
I actually love this idea about goals.
'cause I think finding the why with money.
So what, like, what is the job to be done with money?
It is often a goal that's very personal.
And being able to kind of identify that, but also help them along the journey, I think that's been really important for us as well.
Good. Thank you, Mike.
Yeah. One of the things that we were trying to work on is, is actually how we look at engagement and do less looking at engagement by feature or engagement by channel, and really taking more of a member or a customer journey perspective.
And I think that's a journey for us to go through, but I think it's helping us look at our customers, you know, differently and those experiences.
And how do we get people into those?
How do we engage people better, whether they're a new member or customer.
So onboarding experience, that'd be one.
And looking across the different channels.
I think historically we've just been very focused on channels and features and taking that mindset, it just allowed us to engage more of the organization.
And how do we, you know, reach our engagement goals?
'cause we do have very specific, you know, goals we set as an organization around, you know, levels of engagement, digital engagement that we're, trying to drive against.
And then, you know, bringing the organization together to look at those journeys and then say, okay, how is the organization gonna operate differently around that?
And that's been, that's been really helpful.
It's gonna take us a while to get there as an organization because, you know, historically we've just really been very feature oriented, very channel oriented.
And I think that that's sort of like the, that's an evolution, right?
Like you have to, you've gotta start with the big rocks and then you start filling in the gaps where you get to that level.
So I'm curious, I'm gonna ask the audience, how many of you have existing customer journeys you've deployed in your institutions?
Raise them high. Okay.
How many of you would be open to, if there was, like, if you could say like, here, like just to give you a start point.
Like here's five life stage journeys or personas that could give you a start point.
Awesome. That's what, that's what a lot of — Mike and I were talking about that.
Okay. Lea, tell me your thoughts on, about engagement. I think engagement's unique, especially coming from enterprise FIs that were very large because we would gauge engagement or our KPIs were different per sometimes channel.
So kind of to what you said, Mike, sometimes per product and sometimes per life stage, we never really aligned as an enterprise on what that engagement model's going to look like.
I'd say we tried but there wasn't that consistency.
So what is engagement?
You could probably go and ask them today, and they're measuring it people, everyone's measuring it, but is it the right thing to be measuring?
I'm not sure that engage, there's gonna be one engagement model for FIs that are striving to be multi-year, multi-product type of FI for those people.
So I think it's gonna be an evolution for FIs to kind of hone in what you all were talking about.
You get really, you get more, not completely, completely narrow scope, but you get more refined on who you're targeting and what you want to be if you don't want to have that product at your bank.
I think that that's something that big FIs need to look at.
So I think it — the conversation — I think begs an interesting question, which is the first a statement like, it's harder to create a journey or a series, even if it's a product suite and a service suite for a customer segment.
I think most institutions have a private banking offering and a high net worth offering, small business commercial, like we do think a decent job of creating these sort of islands, but there's a whole lot of customers that are in between those islands, sort of in between those stages.
So how do you, and, we'll, Daniel, we'll start with you on this, is how do we then think about, or how should we be thinking about progressing those customers and attempting to maintain some pathing or some journey that we want to help guide customers through?
Mm-Hmm. I mean, we just, I just listed off like four different segments and there's a lot more in between there, but what does that look like without it being overwhelming? Mm-Hmm.
We tried to identify what are the events that take someone from one stage to the next stage, and then, sort of putting resources around that.
So one example for us is we work with a lot of business owners.
We have the business bank, and then we have the commercial bank.
And there's many business owners that have their businesses through there.
And some of them are not high net worth yet, but if they wanted to sell their company, they certainly would become so and so within the private bank, we have like a whole, we call it like a think tank.
We have a whole bunch of advice around pre-transaction planning.
We have former trust and state attorneys that work with us and help our clients.
Everything, you know, I won't go down the list, but many services like those.
And we realize is if we take those services that live in the private bank and we offer those to business owners that might not be currently in the business bank or in the private bank, that helps facilitate them moving up to the next segment.
And so it helps the customer because they're actually gonna receive a great service that's gonna help them achieve a life goal or whatever, you know, their journey is.
But then it also helps us ensure that we're at the forefront of that, event with them, and we're providing them the services that they need to really come into another segment.
So I'd say, say it another way is sort of identifying the services that exist within each line of business and finding ways to cross sell and also offer those to different segments to sort of create more of a comprehensive, holistic offering.
And I'm gonna, follow up with that because obviously, not every private banking customer has the opportunity, or let me say it this way, private banking officer may not have the opportunity to have kinda that deep level of engagement with everybody in their portfolio.
Mm-Hmm. So how do you address those who have those needs who may not have the opportunity to speak directly with an officer?
We have a lot of content. I mean, and I think we try to think multi-channel too.
So like, maybe your private banker is speaking to you directly or on the phone or in person or over zoom, but maybe you're also receiving our newsletters or our content, or maybe there's webinars we're inviting you to, so we're trying to kind of like diversify the way that we're sharing you this information, sharing this information with you.
But then we're also sort of looking at the insights that we have as an organization about your own financial picture and the data that matters to you.
Because I think that's more compelling is if we can say, okay, we've analyzed your portfolio.
Here are the ways that you could be saving money or earning a higher rate.
And if we're playing that back to you, I think that kind of is a little bit more compelling to get that engagement.
So we do try to think about many different ways of outreach, and then based off of what the customer sort of responds to, that's what we lean more into.
One other thing I'll highlight just 'cause I feel like no panel is complete unless you talk about AI.
We're using AI and we use it as a copilot to help identify things that a private banker should be talking to their customers about.
And I actually think it's a real benefit not only to the bankers, but also to the customers too.
Because you've got a personal banker who's obviously human, who's gonna try to their best to understand your portfolio and, you know, use lots of tools and resources.
But in the background you've got some AI that's also trying to understand your portfolio and recognize opportunities for you.
So I think the, the marriage of AI and bankers, I think that's something that we'll really see more of in the future.
Excellent. Good. Mike, how about you?
How are you trying to navigate?
Or are you navigating all of these different potential customer personas and journeys? Yeah, I was gonna add on Danielle's point, just bring out the point of, and how to talk about data.
You know, I think so much of it for us is unlocking the data that's trapped within the platforms or within the functional areas, whether that's in the business side or the consumer side.
So we can get that view of our member or our customer.
And so we have a lot of work to do there.
We have a lot of work, you know, around legacy systems, and I know that's been talked about, at this conference.
So we have work under the underlying data and platforms that we have to get done.
But the, at the same time then deliver on, you know, the experiences and build those experiences for our members or our customers.
And you know, I think it does get back to us around looking at those primary journeys that, you know, our customers are going on with us.
And really then to try to align the organization around those different pieces while also acknowledging, you know, the needs of different product groups around, you know, whether that's the mortgage team or consumer lending, you know, they have needs and goals that they're trying to achieve for the bus business and, you know, and our members.
But, you know, it's tricky.
Like, that's, you know, it's challenging trying to, you know, get that alignment around the customer, across the organization, because not everyone's, you know, perfectly aligned.
You know, we're not perfectly aligned around the goals, but, yeah.
But that's how we're, you know, some of the things that we're working on to do that.
Good. Thank you. Lea. I'm gonna foot stump on data.
So data is important.
And if you map out or string out all of those journeys, a couple of tests that we branded, actually both FIs that were successful, is if you look at the cohort of the individuals and identify if they purchased a new house, and of those individuals that purchased a new house post six months, 18 months, which of that peer group had an increase in operational dollars in savings, dollars in investment accounts?
And if you look at what they did, and you're able to present that information back to the other individuals who just purchased a house, you can help them on their journey as well.
And I find too that, well, we found that that also increased the loyalty because you were able to provide them with information on people like them that kind of excelled after event.
Was it switch a job, buy a house, things like that.
And sometimes it was a product play, sometimes it was a savings play, sometimes it was all ulterior kind of, you know, insurance items and things like that.
But I think you're spot on with the data as you use that you absolutely can string it across your journeys and bring people along.
Looking at that cohort mix.
I think it's interesting because, you know, we, again — earlier conversation, we look at all of the advancements in technology have been really gauged around helping consumers understand their finances better, presenting the information to them in a more concise and clear way, more channels to give it to them.
But over in all of the decades of technological advancement in this space, consumers are not actually getting smarter as a whole in their finances.
I mean, there are pockets certainly of people excelling and leveraging the technology, but on the whole, like, consumers just aren't getting better at their finances.
And so I really love what you talked about, because what that does is, is exactly the, that they expect from us, which is, here's something that could be beneficial for you the most of some of those, at least those people who you've seen.
Here's a pattern that we want to then make aware and create awareness for our other customers who've started on the same path.
They may not have known that that's even something they should be pursuing.
So you're not only giving them the service, but you're helping bring awareness and education, right. And enablement around. So you get engagement and you get loyalty.
That's right. You crack that nut. I love it. That's great.
Good. Okay. Justin, wrap us up on it. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think what I'm feeling, and I think what's being said around data is that we have lots of it.
We just have to stop being tone deaf, right?
Like, when we reach out to a consumer and we're not speaking to them in a way that's personalized, they're gonna disengage.
'cause it just becomes white noise.
It's not a meaningful message to them.
But if the reverse is true and we add real value to where they're at in their journey, that that creates value for them and they're gonna engage that way.
And then you can use that engagement to get more data and then tailor it even further.
So I think it's just a journey to create those journeys.
But yeah, I think a lot of times we're tone deaf and historically as an industry have been in the way we interact with consumers as just like, everyone's gonna get this same message from us.
And I think it's gonna get even more.
It's gonna rise to the top because as consumers, everything we purchase is starting to hone in on what we need.
So if you get an ad, if you get an email and you, it doesn't fit your life right now at all.
Yeah. The first thing you always think is, why am I getting this?
Yeah. So our clients are gonna start doing that a lot more.
'cause it happens all the time in other places as well.
So they're gonna start to recognize it.
And I think that there's, because there's an element of this where going back to, you know, our keynotes earlier that there is gonna be some failure in that, but that's where we get to learn.
So the obvious ones, obviously I'm not going to recommend, maybe a mortgage if, I don't know.
Now I'm not, I can't come up with a good example, but if it doesn't fit, I actually offer a more direct deposit. Right, get a new house.
Exactly. Yeah.
If it's an obvious thing, I probably shouldn't do it.
But then there are, there's this element to where we've gotta start somewhere that, you know, progress over perfection is much more critical for us if we wait until we feel like we've got the perfect model, which, and there's a balance there operationally, just from an execution perspective, from a regulatory and, and a privacy perspective, we wanna make sure that we're, we still have to check those boxes appropriately, but we should begin and then learn from those things.
The other thing I'm hearing is we've been through this, is that, this is how I think we try to think about this at Bank of Hawaii is that while we have, we talk about journeys, but what we actually have isn't it really just one journey?
Especially if you position it from like a life stage perspective, you're born and you're gonna die and there's a whole lot of stuff in between.
So where can we help you along the way, right?
And as we see those milestones occur, I think that's where we, like at Bank of Hawaii, we've created personas, not necessarily, and we want to create a journey that is probably covers 70% of our customers, like as they work through this path.
And then there will be all of these nuances.
And so we're not necessarily gonna have a set path for every single of the thousand different variations, but we're starting first with basically a cradle to grave journey and financial service products that could be valuable and then start there.
For us, that's how we're trying to think about it.
And that it's not that you are like, your journey is still the same, but as you move into different stages of that life, your needs become different.
And then that's where sort of the, a different persona potentially takes over.
Hey and, David, you know, we were talking at lunch, it's, I feel like there's plenty of insights out there, right?
In terms of like the data, right?
And it's really, you know, to me it's less about all the insights and the additional insights, but how do we get action out of it for our customers?
Like how do they, how do we give them the insight, but then, okay, what's the follow through to get a change, right?
To make change for them happen?
And that's to me the really hard part, right?
To figure that out. And so I, you know, we're talking at lunch, like, you know, I think there's just work to be done there, at least for our institution of like, okay, now how do we help our, you know, our members, you know, make different choices, you know, help them, you know, in their, you know, financial journey.
I think of it almost like a, and I love the panel's thoughts on this.
Like, to me it's maybe not to be contrarian to Wes earlier, but I'm gonna be a little bit maybe, but it's not so much the, because if we’re relying on the consumers to take action, if you think about it just from a business perspective, I don't know that we're ever gonna get our ROI out of the technology investments that we make.
If we're dependent on the consumers being the ones to take action, that add value to me, I think that the greater opportunity is if we as the financial institution as their provider, their trusted advisor, we then can create guidance.
And then what it becomes is, yes, there is an action that the consumer takes, but it really is more of a confirmation.
It becomes an element where we say, there's information that says, this is where you are, here's where others like you are, yes or no.
Do you wanna proceed? Do you wanna pursue this? Yes or no?
Would you like us to help you with it? Yes or no?
Even if it's just more information, right?
We wanna make sure that there's something that is, we're not always expecting the consumer to just know what the right answer is.
But what we're giving them some guidance around this is what could be right for you.
So what do you, you know, what do you think of that?
And then give them an opportunity to confirm that thing versus needing to take the action to go make the change happen.
I think it's important for banks to remember.
Not many people wanna bank.
They wanna be with their family, they want to have things, they wanna take care of their family and their children.
They don't want to bank.
So a lot of times I've been in conversations where we've had to step out of, well, here's what this person needs.
And it, you know, it's the transaction experience, blah, blah, the experience and all those things.
And we get caught up in our bank legalese, the person didn't come wanting to get a loan, they want a car.
So start with that and talk to them like that.
That's a great point. Yeah. David, one other thing I was gonna say is I think historically journey mapping, the customer journey has been very linear, right?
But consumers' lives are not linear.
And so I think that's where AI and machine learning can help you be more dynamic and tailored to their situation.
And, you know, I just think that you have to inspect where people are falling out of the anticipated journey you have, if it's very linear and figure out where you’re tone deaf and fix it. Just a Comment. No, that's good.
Any other comments on that?
Well said. Okay.
So, some of you may have seen this, this was a couple of months ago, but MX data shows that customers who engage in certain activities within the first 30 days, so this is in a digital engagement, digital experience, are more engaged a year later.
And, they talk about certain activities, it's direct deposit, it's setting up a bill pay, it's aggregating accounts.
There's just, there's a handful of things that I think they listed five things.
As you think about this relative to your institutions, do you find that to be true?
And maybe what are those activities that you find, tend to be, greater indicators of long-term engagement?
And I think, Mike, I'm on you at this point.
Well, I might answer this a little differently.
Like, we've been very focused on, you know, shifting or not shifting, but, you know, as people become more digital, we know that they're less engaged, surprisingly, or not surprisingly, industry stats on, consumers that originate in a, you know, in the retail channel versus digital.
So we're very focused as we see that shift to digital of how do we get our members more digitally engaged.
One stat or some of the work that we were doing was interesting was that we found if we had campaigns within our branches to engage, you know, members or, you know, customers at that point that were obviously not taking advantage of our analog, we'll call it analog channel, that was one of the most effective things that we did, you know, we've done to convert them into, you know, digital members.
So, you know, that's one of the tactics that we've done, but we've become very focused on that, you know, onboarding experience.
Like how do we, and that first 30 days of someone becoming a member or a customer, you know, what are those things that we can do?
So, you know, we don't have all the capabilities there.
It's not, you know, what I would describe as the best experience.
We have features, we have direct deposit switching, but is that experience like a seamless one that, no, it's not.
And so, you know, now we're looking at those, you know, kind of back to that journey, like what is that journey?
What's the best way to get those, you know, those new members engaged on things like, you know, direct deposit switching, which are high indicators of, you know, engagement, loyalty and so forth.
So, yeah, I love that.
I dunno if that answered your question. That's how we're That's great. No, it's good. And I think that, to be fair, we're probably all at varying degrees of this, right?
Like, I don't know that many people have it perfectly yet.
If you do, you should come up here. Anybody? Yeah. Yeah.
Tell us. Onboarding. Perfect.
I would say is anybody from Capital One? Opened an account recently there, and I felt it was pretty perfect actually.
But I will say to that end, like I opened an account personally on Capital One.
I got an email, I have a Capital One credit card.
But they offered me a checking account and they said, if you open it — it was really simple.
Open a checking account, set up two direct deposits in the first 75 days that are at least $500, and activate your debit card, you'll get $250.
And I was like, done, right?
$250, that's easy money.
Like why wouldn't I? I also told all my kids to do it, right?
So it's like this, there's no reason why this shouldn't be if they're giving away this kind of money.
And that was great. Like, that was a great experience.
I got it set up, seamless.
They had some information on me already, which, it made it so, so easy.
I will say though, what has actually gotten me is my debit card got sent.
So I live in two places.
It got sent to the other place where I wasn't.
So I called and I changed my address on in the app and then I called and said, I need to get a new debit card sent.
They verified me within minutes.
It was on its way, like Federal Express, no extra cost.
Now they've got me. 'cause I think that this goes back to what Lea was talking about, which is there are other processes that sometimes get in our way.
So it's not, it doesn't end there.
This is certainly one of the most critical, like the first opportunity we have to create a great experience and a great first impression.
But it continues after that.
And I was just expecting them to say, like, I literally was expecting them to say, well, you just changed your address, so we have to wait 30 days before we can mail it to you, or we have to send you through this higher level of verification.
Because that's the kind of thing that right now Bank of Hawaii has to do.
Like, we're actually working through this where it's like, how do we verify them so that we can get them at a better place, but like, who wants to wait 45 days to be able to close an account or order a debit card because of that?
So anyway, so that's how I think about that.
But, okay.
Lea, so from your perspective, what are kind of key behaviors we want to engage consumers at the beginning?
Yeah, onboarding's very important.
If I can sit down and I can do it quickly. Fabulous.
To your point, I think an incentive with steps, just guide them through.
I mean, sometimes clients don't know what they want or how your product beats your competitors.
You know, Starbucks took people and taught them how to order a coffee very quickly.
So if you think about packaging up where your client is and what you would like for them to have if they got a credit card and you wanna get the checking, make it simple.
Do it that way. Because, you know, in this experience, Dave said it, he said, you got me, guess what?
They got loyalty from you right then and there, right?
And it wasn't the $250. It was, the the debit card.
It was the debit card. And so sometimes we have to invest in what I call, not the, not money makers, but low money makers, because FedEx, to do that was expensive.
You got a new card you probably provided to do that, you had FedEx to do it.
That's not an inexpensive thing to do. Mm-Hmm.
But they got you. Yeah. All of that.
And so the, not the, the low money makers, you're investing for the long-term benefit.
Excellent. Justin. Yeah, I think you clued in on something I've thought a lot about when it comes to onboarding, which is, it's gotta be easy.
It's gotta be so easy.
And it, and I think sometimes in our industry, the complexity of the regulations, the things we have to put in the bird seed to explain the product and all this stuff, and it just gets in the consumer's way.
And I remember someone, it might have been at an MX event, but they showed an Apple box with an iPhone in it, and they showed a Windows phone box with the two boxes.
Every side of the Windows box was covered in fine print of all this different stuff about their phone.
And the Apple box was just so clean, right?
And I don't know, I didn't see many unboxings on YouTube of Windows phones, right?
Right. But people were always filming themselves, opening the Apple phone.
I think simplicity's really key, but doing it in a way that again, is kind of tailored to their situation.
Like you were probably in Hawaii, right?
So they had to overnight you something to Hawaii, which meant a ton to you.
And in the long run, if they get loyalty from you for that really didn't cost them much at all.
So, and to be fair, i I, I don't have a lot of money with them.
Like, it wasn't like I was, I wasn't a high value customer, right?
Yeah. This is something that they just do for their customers.
Yeah. And I think that's where onboarding is, is starting with longevity in mind.
What do we have to do up front to make sure they want us to around forever?
What are some things we could do?
Danny, how about you? I actually really like that you're raising the stat, like the first 30 days are the most important because to me it's almost like the same thing when you meet someone, like you're forming a first impression.
And those are often hard to change later on.
Um, so I agree with everything that's been said, and that's certainly things that I think about and, and we're focused on.
Um, what I would add to that is, I, I feel like in the first 30 days, maybe the first 60 days, you have an opportunity to delight and surprise.
And I think certainly with J.P. Morgan, when people show up, they assume like big bank, there's gonna be a lot of regulatory red tape and a lot of like inflexibility.
And certainly that's the case with many things that we can't change because of, you know, regulatory compliance.
But things that we can change, I really do, um, try to make a point to like get creative in the first 30 days or the first 60 days where we're really trying to get to know someone.
I'll just share a really quick example of like a regulatory thing we could not change, but we tried to figure out a way to make it different.
In the rare case that someone needs to sign something.
And I heard, by the way, Lizzie in the panel before this, talking about signing a joint account, I'm like cringing because, um, there are some cases where you have to do things like that.
I mean, why can't we show up to someone's house at their doorstep with the notary?
Like, why can't we make it easy that way?
Or if they have to actually sign documents, can we send it in a package that has like a care package with it or some, you know, some chocolates or something to make it more fun.
Um, so I think, I just think that showing the client, the customer who you are in the first 30 or 60 days, really does build that trust.
And I think it's an investment that we should make at the beginning, especially because for all of us, we wanna keep these clients for as long as we can.
And so I do think, um, showing them who you are and really showing up in the first 30 days really does make a difference. Great.
Thank you. Um, I'm gonna, there's gonna be one question that we'll, that we'll take, which I want give everyone a chance to think about, which is, what is like your number one metric for engagement, knowing that you're succeeding at engaging customers.
So think about that, but we won't open to any questions that the audience has unless that was your question.
Okay. Well then with that, let's, um, uh, Lee, we'll start with you.
Sure. We're circled all the way back around, so I kind of think it's a, a two for, for me.
So engagement is about touches with the fi but also at the same time an increase in funds or savings accounts, credit card usage.
So there's, there's not only how many times have you come, but did you just check your balance and your balance continued to go lower?
So you weren't really engaging, you were just looking at how much money you had, or did you come and do other things and get another product, have a direct deposit to your savings account for your emergency savings goal, things like that.
So for me, it, it's two.
Excellent. Justin. Yeah, I think it's about growth.
It's about growth and utilization.
So if you had to pick one, I'd probably say growth portfolio growth is probably the biggest indicator you're well engaged with, with your people, with your account holders.
If the portfolios are growing, they're engaged.
And I think that's key.
I would secondary to that, say utilization.
So you want to see swipes and you want to see spend, account, relationship activity going up and then customer satisfaction or people satisfied.
And I think if they're really satisfied, they're using you more and more and your portfolios are growing, people are talking with their money and they're engaged. I think those are the keys.
Excellent. Danny, We look a lot of things.
Some of what was mentioned, um, for me, the two primary that we focus on is wallet share.
Um, but that's another metric for growth.
And then I really love the net promoter score, like how likely is someone to recommend you to their friends or their family?
Generally they'll only do that if they're having a very positive experience to the point where they're willing to put their name out there and recommend you as a service provider.
Um, so I'd like taking a look at that as well to identify just how, how good we're the, you know, the level of service we're providing to a customer and how, um, how, how we're showing up for them.
So I have a quick follow on.
So when you talk about wallet shares, does that, do you, does your, do your teams have predefined like these, these are the products and services that we want to engage our customers in in the first X months or, or over the relationship?
Is there something like they start to kind of, this is a bad analogy, but they start to color in the slices of the pie that they know they're, they're broadening that?
Or is it just simply how do we see them just growing relationship with us?
I think it's more of growth.
I mean, there's certainly many different customer types and some will never get to a hundred percent wallet share, and that's okay, that's fine.
We kind of meet people with where they're at.
What we care more about is have we shared with them the services that they're eligible for and the services that could make their lives easier.
And if we've shared that and they still decide not to, I mean, that's their own decision.
But, um, so we focus more on just growth net promoter score, customer satisfaction, and also like we really evaluate ourselves on performance and so how, how well we're performing for the customer.
Um, but I think if you do all that really well, the tendency is to gain more wallet share because someone knows you're doing a good job, and so they'll, they'll bring more assets to you.
Excellent. Mike, bring us home.
I, I'd have similar answers to, to, to what the, the panelists said.
I, I would just add one thing that I really like to have.
So whatever the measurement is, I want to benchmark for it.
Um, because I want to know like what good is.
Um, so whenever, you know, we're looking at, and we have different measures of engagement, I want something that I can benchmark outside of our institution because, you know, my leadership is always gonna ask me if I give them a number around engagement or wallet share.
Um, they're gonna say, well, is that good? And what is good?
And so I really, um, whenever I can find benchmarks, I, I, I, you know, try to get those so I know how we're doing against that.
That's good. Well, hopefully, um, thank you all.
I appreciate you taking the time and it was a pleasure for me to sit up here with all of you.
Um, and thank you for sharing what your organizations are doing, your own thoughts around this.
Um, I think one, one thing I'll, I'll say maybe in wrapping up is what I take from this is that we're all, we're all in the same boat, right?
For good or bad. All of us are working towards the same thing.
And it feels like we're all in about the same place.
And I know even through all the other sessions we've had, there's a lot of like head nodding because we understand and we, we, we get where we're at and we're all moving towards that.
So I, I can always speak from, I, I, I think I can speak for our panel.
If you have questions, you wanna reach out to us, um, please do so.
We, we certainly would love to engage in, in conversation to understand what's working well for you, if you wanna know more about what's working well for us.
But, um, yeah, I just appreciate the time and appreciate all of you being here with us today.
Thank you.
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